Inside World Spa Brooklyn: How Leonid Khanin Built a 50,000 Square Foot Wellness Destination That Brings 7 Spa Cultures Under One Roof

[00:01] Alex Evans: Thank you so much for joining the podcast today. I'm joined with Leonid Khanin, the co-founder of World Spa, based in Brooklyn, New York. They opened up in November of 2022, actually, and they have 50,000 square feet. Thank you so much, Leonid, for joining me on the podcast today. How is your day going so far?

[00:20] Leonid Khanin: It was great, my pleasure.

[00:22] Alex Evans: Yeah, well it's really amazing to have you on here. Obviously New York City is one of the biggest cities in the entire world. I feel like that's kind of where everything's happening. And specifically, it's so impressive to me that you have a 50,000 square foot wellness destination in the heart of the city too. Can you rewind for just a moment? Can you tell me just a little bit about what even brought you to New York in the first place and what made you want to open up a spa there?

[00:46] Leonid Khanin: Yeah, that's easy. I moved to New York right after my thesis in Architectural Academy, and what brought me in was curiosity. So back then in 1998, I had just finished my masters in architectural academy in Moscow and was excited about becoming an architect and starting my own practice. Then I got a call from a construction company in New York who said, do you want to come and help us to build the architectural division within? And I was like, no, I was planning to start the PhD program and I already passed all the exams, which was not easy. But I thought, New York is some place that I want to try, and then a couple of years later I'll just move back. Well, that never happened. So when you're in New York longer than a year, you're sort of getting stuck in a good way. Because if you're a curious person, you're getting more and more curious. It's like a tunnel and you just keep exploring. And I'm still doing that, more than 25 years later.

[02:13] Alex Evans: So I guess I didn't realize this beforehand, but you're from Russia. You were born in Russia?

[02:17] Leonid Khanin: Yeah, I am. I'm from Moscow, which is quite unusual for people here. Most of the Russians in New York are from somewhere else. But yeah, I'm from the capital.

[02:29] Alex Evans: Why do you think that most of the Russians in New York are from somewhere else and not Moscow?

[02:35] Leonid Khanin: Well, it's complicated and might be a separate conversation. Most of the Russians that live here are immigrants or refugees, and they moved back in at the end of the 1980s or 1970s from places where the quality of life was very low, hard, and dangerous. Moscow was quite a different place, especially at the end of the 1990s. There were a lot of interesting things happening there. Now things have changed a lot. It's not the country I know, and I probably can hardly relate to whatever it represents now.

[03:30] Alex Evans: Yeah. Well, we'll certainly talk about what's happening in some of the major cities and metropolitan cities across the US and probably around the world a little bit later in the pod. The reason why I asked about the Russian stuff is I was actually adopted from Russia in the late 1990s. So I feel like a little piece of heritage is from back there. I've got a soft spot for when I'm talking to other Russians, so it's really cool to hear that that's part of your story, immigrating to the US as well. Do you feel like you being an immigrant and new to the US was a benefit or was that a hardship in terms of creating a new business?

[04:08] Leonid Khanin: I actually think it was a benefit in a way. As an immigrant, you take challenges in a different way. Nothing is given. Everything is for the taking. So you really have to try hard to get anything and don't expect miracles unless you make them.

[04:39] Alex Evans: I like that. Don't expect miracles unless you make them. That's awesome.

[04:42] Leonid Khanin: Yeah. And it works. It works for me, and not only for me, for a lot of people. I respect everybody who was born here, and I respect people who had an ambition to start their life, the new cycle of life here, like I've done and a lot of people I know.

[05:08] Alex Evans: Nice. So when you were turning World Spa from just a concept into actually turning it into a physical place and opening up those doors, did you have a really strong understanding of exactly what you were going for, or have you found that the spa itself has innovated and evolved over the years?

[05:27] Leonid Khanin: The good thing about the architectural education is you work with concepts from the beginning. It helps you to think that even if you have a very vague and blurry vision, you still think that you have it. And with World Spa, we as a team, and it wasn't only me, there were a few people working with me as partners, we had a very limited understanding of what we're building and how it's going to be accepted. There were a lot of ifs. And I'm just surprised to see how all of this mosaic or puzzle got into a picture and how it works now.

[06:21] Alex Evans: Do you think that there was a lot of innovation since the day that you opened up the doors back in 2022?

[06:28] Leonid Khanin: Within our business or just in general on the market?

[06:31] Alex Evans: In your business specifically.

[06:34] Leonid Khanin: Yeah. There were so many things, starting with bringing the entertainment component, which is not technology, it is people, talent. Even changing a menu in a restaurant that is serving people on the floor. Probably more than a dozen alterations, and all of them were based on need or interests of our guests and cultural insights of whatever we represent, even in combination pairing it with certain cabins and saunas and hamams. So it's still happening. I just got off a meeting and I'm planning to be on another one later today which is all about how this space and this business is changing towards better. There'll be a lot happening. It's a big facility with a lot of potential.

[07:36] Alex Evans: Yeah. It's definitely a big facility, and that's something that actually stood out to me. Obviously, 50,000 square feet is no joke. That's a huge facility. And the business side of my mind always goes to, how do we maximize the space? How do we make sure that people are not only having a really great time when they're here, but how can we make sure that we're making up for that? Because I'm sure your rent is quite high for having that kind of space. Is that something that you guys are considering, and how does that tie to keeping up with the times?

[08:15] Leonid Khanin: Well, first of all, we built this building from the ground up. When I arrived here in 2017, it was a parking lot. So it's our building. The rent situation is quite different, and that saves a lot. That is actually reflected in the quality of the concept, because one of the reasons why a lot of competition have to struggle and save on every finish or even on technology is that we knew that we're building in a building that belongs to us. So it's a very different approach, and it changes quite a lot. Maybe we invested a little more than we were probably supposed to, but it did reflect in the way people react to the interiors and everything. We continuously change things here, but the rent is not the main issue.

[09:20] Alex Evans: Sure. Can we dive in a little bit deeper then? What is the main issue that you're facing in a business like this?

[09:29] Leonid Khanin: I think the main issue for the business right now is to make the expenditure correctly. We have an ambition that it's not going to end with this 50,000 square feet. It's going to grow. We are in the process of looking for a perfect location for a new one, and I'm not going to be surprised if a new one based on whatever I've seen as potential sites will be bigger than that one.

[09:57] Alex Evans: Okay. So you want to go bigger than 50,000 square feet on World Spa 2?

[10:02] Leonid Khanin: Right. New York is a big city, and one of the major differences from the competition for World Spa is the size and the quality. And there are so much more. As you understand, one of the major components of World Spa is bringing different cultures under one roof, like the spa cultures, which is Eastern Europe, Asia, Nordic. They're all represented here as cabins. We probably represent about 7 to 8 different cultures under one roof. Why not represent 12? Why not add another few that will, you know, like with a diamond, the more edges you have, the better price for this thing. The more interesting it will be for the guests. So we need more space.

[11:04] Alex Evans: Do you feel a bit limited in the current space? You think that the 50,000 square feet just isn't able to house more cultures under its roof?

[11:13] Leonid Khanin: No, I think it's actually perfect here. It's a good balance. There's enough space for probably about 300 to 400 people at once enjoying it in the spa mode. Though in the peak days more than that come, and I'm not saying we probably usually the visit lasts about three and a half, four, or five hours. So we get more than 600 people easily through the day. But at once, probably the most comfortable number will be 300 to 400. Not more than that. If it gets more than that, it gets crowded.

[12:08] Alex Evans: Yeah. I haven't personally been to the spa but I'm super excited next time I'm in New York I'll definitely be taking a trip by. I'm very excited to see it in person. But you did mention that if there's too many people, my field is like crowded and cramped. How are you splitting up those people right now? Are people just naturally going into the different saunas and hamams and they're just organically splitting up? Or are there people that are sectioning off areas? What does that flow look like inside?

[12:37] Leonid Khanin: Well, again, my background in design, especially in designing museums and presidential libraries, that's where you get this special choreography of the visit. We call it in World Spa the journey. When you come in, you have certain options, different variations of your journey based on whatever you want from your visit. Is it a boost of your energy? Or is it releasing the stress? Or just a bunch of friends together celebrating somebody's birthday. So it's celebrational. All of these options will create different sequences of visiting different cabins. For our regular customers, they create their own journey. We have members who change the sequence of the cabins they visit and the amount of time they use in each on a monthly basis. But answering your question, it's all of what you mentioned. It's the amount of space we have, it's the entertainment that we propose for our guests. There are certain hours where our staff is walking around and announcing that there will be an event, let's say at one or at three, and inviting people to a specific sauna or hamam to see something new, to talk about something, or just to enjoy 15 minutes of somebody dancing with a towel and with the snowballs infused with a variety of aromas, which are probably one of the most popular things now in New York City. While in World Spa it's not the only thing that is offered, we do have events in the sauna healing, we have events in the aroma sauna, and we have the authentic events in the banyas which represent Eastern European culture.

[14:53] Alex Evans: Is there a standout that you prefer, that you really enjoy to go to as well?

[15:00] Leonid Khanin: I like the dance, the one that is called Aufguss. It comes from a German word, infusion. That's where our sauna masters are dancing with a towel but in a special way. They allow you to get the breath of the aromas, the potions that they mix together. I actually make sure that whatever they use for mixing these aromas are organic and really special, like fresh infusions that are coming from Europe and from a specific brand, so I know for sure that whatever our guests are breathing or enjoying, they are absolutely safe and the best quality. Sometimes it comes with a price. That's what I like. But there are also some treatments that I highly enjoy. Every two weeks I probably do them. This is Veniki. They are the branches of the oak leaves in combination with honey and salt scrubbing. That is about a 45-minute treatment, but after that you feel like not only your skin is new, but everything is amazing. You have a boost of energy for probably a few days. That's the best thing after a long trip or after you've been sick for a while. This thing will give you an amazing push. But that's not entertainment, this is more treatment, the last one that I mentioned.

[16:36] Alex Evans: Well, thanks for sharing exactly what your favorites are. I'm definitely curious. You mentioned the sauna masters. I've been to a couple of places as well too that have sauna masters that are doing the towels, and also have the ice balls. Are you seeing that other competitors and other spas are starting to ramp up and maybe take some of the things that you guys have been doing, and implement it into their spas as well? Is that something that you're noticing?

[17:06] Leonid Khanin: Sure. I actually enjoy it. I visited one place in Newton, Massachusetts, and they have this Kello Spa, and they were doing the same treatment as I just described. They were saying we got it from World Spa and we just slightly converted it to whatever we like and to our settings. What do you think about it? I really enjoyed it. It was different. And in terms of the entertainment, like the dances, there was a US championship in Bathhouse. I visited it and it was quite an interesting performance. Technically and emotionally it was quite an interesting thing to see. So you feel like you're visiting a theater, because it's even decorated with different lights and music and even sounds and special effects in the sauna. I was surprised with the creativity that the teams who are competing showed. That was quite an interesting experience. Not always when you go to a sauna do you expect a show. And especially with the actors who are dressed and dancing and they're sweating but at the same time it's intentional.

[18:38] Alex Evans: Yeah. When you hear about these other spots that you're going to, how are you finding out about them? Were they already on the map or were you recommended to them, or did they reach out to you and say, hey, we're so inspired by what you're doing?

[18:53] Leonid Khanin: In my case, actually, the last one, usually they're approaching me and saying, hey Leo, we're opening, there'll be a soft opening in two weeks, pick the date. It's a close circle in a way, because they are many, and they're becoming more and more, and it is a competition. But in a way I think they want to know what I think about what they've done. When they come here to explore, they ask me questions and I'm usually quite open. Not 100% open, obviously, because if they start to ask too many questions, it's a free market.

[19:40] Alex Evans: Yeah. I forget though, there's that quote that's like, "a rising tide carries all ships," which is like, as the wellness community continues to expand, that's also more customers across and just more people that are interested in the space. Have you been seeing that happen just generally with the competition rising, and have you seen wellness kind of booming as an industry?

[20:03] Leonid Khanin: Yeah. I'm specifically enjoying the fact of seeing a lot of younger generation. I don't want to label anything with the numbers or letters. I don't know why we have to. But yeah, I've seen at least three medium-sized places, facilities, opening within the last half a year. And I know about another four. That is really cool because I actually think overall that we benefit from each other. The smaller places, especially for the younger crowd, they're bringing the awareness. They're probably delivering to more people the knowledge that is very open and available in Europe. For example, in Finland, people grow up with it. In Russia as well. But in America, it's like, yeah, I have a sauna in my gym, I go there. That's pretty much every other person will say, yeah, I know about it. But do they enjoy it? If this sauna is somewhere you can spend more than five minutes without suffering and having a headache tomorrow, this is very different. That's what makes the professional approach special.

[21:36] Alex Evans: Yeah. I also think that there's a really big draw. I'm in the younger category, I'm sub-30, I'm 29 years old. I was just in Madrid actually and I visited a place called Bathhouse, I think it was called. It was such an incredible experience, something that I don't really get to experience all that often, but it was like very private, very intentional, with obviously sauna, steam, cold plunges, hot tubs, salt scrubs and everything, but in a very brutalist kind of themed, downstairs, concrete aesthetic. It just made the entire experience so unforgettable in many ways. I think as these new spas and competitors are opening up, it's cool to see that each one of them is taking their own approach to wellness as a whole. And I think you're completely right, honestly. I've personally noticed that wellness has been an expanding category. I find myself as one of those people inside of it, and it's really great to have new options and see that it's expanding as well.

[22:43] Leonid Khanin: Yep. There are some things that might be connected to hype, some things that might go away, but some things that are culturally supported that have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. People were going in Africa or in the Middle East, they were going to hamams. There was a reason for that. It wasn't only health, it was in a way necessity. A lot of the guests, if I'm doing a private tour or explaining the concept, they're asking me, why is the Finnish sauna so dry? Why are the hamams so wet? Why is the Russian banya so in the middle? Interesting enough, the more I was researching it, the more I understood that those cabins are representing the opposite of what mother nature gives to these people. If, for example, you are a merchant and you're traveling with a camel through the Sahara Desert, what happens to you on the go? You've been spending weeks traveling through the desert, and there are all these sandstorms landing in your lungs. How can you get rid of all this dust? You go to hamam. You get all this humidity and you cough it out. So for them, hamam was the place to escape to get rid of extra dust. If you're in Finland and you're surrounded by cold lakes and rivers, your bones are freezing, what do you want? The dry heat. That's what you're getting in the sauna. And with the Russians, you want dry heat when it's wet outside and cold, and you want the wet heat when it's dusty. So it's a universal thing. That's the answer to why all of that creates this slice by slice pizza of our World Spa coverage of our culture.

[25:09] Alex Evans: I love that there's so much intention behind it, and I love that it's becoming so much more accessible. I'm really curious to talk about the future too. Just a little bit. We talked about it before this podcast even started, but drinking is on the decline, specifically alcoholic beverages, for some of the younger generations. And it seems like there is a push or gravitation towards wellness in general. Where do you really see wellness going in the next five to ten years realistically?

[25:43] Leonid Khanin: I think that wellness will be infused with entertainment. Will it be media? I don't know. Some kind of amazing laser projections, unique steam that will be triggering different emotional and healing properties in our physiology, who knows? There are so many technologies and so much availability. There's all this research on the plants and stuff, the herbs, and maybe psychedelics, who knows, they're becoming legal. Maybe a combination of that with the contrast therapy that you're getting in between sauna and cold plunge, and combination of all of that within the cultural aspect, will be probably the future. There are certain projects that are moving that way. World Spa is one of them, definitely. There is a project I think it's called Submersive in Texas. But the more you study it, the more you understand it. They create a lot of very nice and interesting images in AI. They're very sexy in a way. But the question is, as a builder, as a designer, when I see images like that, I'm thinking, well, that's a great idea, it looks amazing. I can draw or I can use AI and send a beautiful floating city in the clouds. Do I have the technology that will support that? For the investors, you know. First you have the idea, then you explain it, then you engineer it, and then you build it. It always works that way.

[28:04] Alex Evans: Are you having conversations like this when it comes to World Spa 2 and the second generation that you guys will be building? Are you trying to think outside of the norm?

[28:17] Leonid Khanin: Yeah, we do. And my team is quite supportive in the innovation. I've been experimenting with immersive saunas within the World Spa envelope. Though I do have, the more I'm testing it, the more questions I get, because in a way we want people to leave behind the media devices. And I'm not saying we're not requiring, as most of the spas do, to leave the phone in a locker. It is optional. If you want to keep it with you, it's up to you. We don't want to limit you with some strict rules. You have to respect other people and privacy, and so far it works.

[29:12] Alex Evans: Yeah, that's interesting to hear. Most of the spas I go to require us to leave the phone in the spa. That's really common. And I know that earlier I mentioned that there's been a decline in some of the alcohol consumption. But I've also been to places where they have a bar at the spa as well. I wanted to know what your thought on that is. Is that common? Is that something that you offer as well?

[29:35] Leonid Khanin: We do offer, we do have a liquor license and we have a full bar that is actually in the menu. In the club area on the mezzanine, we do have an open bar which is visible. It gives a lot of people options. We do advise to first do the bathing and then whatever drinking they want. We see that people are drinking a lot less. And I've heard that in places where they don't have any liquor on sale, they do have an issue with people actually drinking in the locker rooms. That's the last thing you want because this is uncontrollable, and then you get some accidents on floor, which we don't have. Though I understand, and I see that the younger crowd or younger visitors, they're not interested in the liquor. They're more interested in juices, smoothies, and stuff like that, more healthy stuff. And we do have this in the menu as well. World Spa is universal. We have a lot of people of different ages. What I like about it comparing to competition is that we're not limited to a specific age group. World Spa is a melting pot, like New York. We can see variety of all kinds of colors, any age groups, like mothers, fathers, and this is something that surprisingly happened. I think it's happening because World Spa is so big, so you can spend the whole day here. That's why the food is very important, because at some point you're getting hungry. It's a physiological, normal thing to get hungry, especially when you sweat. When you lose water and you dehydrate, you need to add different vitamins and whatever, and it is all available on the floor right there. We don't want you to leave. That's not the idea. And we also want you to come back.

[31:58] Alex Evans: Yeah, and what do you think brings somebody back? What makes a first time visitor into a repeat customer?

[32:07] Leonid Khanin: It's a good question because there are many things. At the beginning we didn't know what exactly brings people back. We thought, well, maybe a good design, maybe they'll be curious if they had a chance to explore everything or something they left for the next time. But what I noticed is that the way our team, people on the floor, help guests to navigate, how they feel welcome. This is a very important part. And in general, the aquathermal, this contrast therapy is quite addictive. It's good for you. There's nothing wrong about it. If you'll do a Japanese onsen where you go from a hot pool to a cold pool and then you get back, it's such an interesting feeling, and your skin, a lot of people forget that skin is our largest organ. It tells you what it likes. And then maybe there is a memory inside, some physiology, that tells you, okay, well, it's been two weeks, it's time to come back. And I want to try it again. Or you've tried the dry sauna and that's what you explored last time. Maybe this time you want to explore more wet hamams, or maybe even order some kind of treatment massage or scrub. There are many things. Variety, probably, that's what brings people back.

[33:50] Alex Evans: Nice. That's really cool, and I'm really excited to visit as well. I know that I'll probably do a massage, a scrub, hit the hamams, hit the sauna, hit the steam. Just do everything.

[33:59] Leonid Khanin: Yeah, let me know when you'll be coming. I'll be happy to do a tour, which is special because I know about pretty much every small piece of finish, why this wood is there, why this stone is there. There were so many cultural insights behind each of the cabins because a lot of saunas and banyas we actually built there, not here, not in the States. They were built some in Russia, some in Finland, in a crazy variety of places, because the research was showing that if we'd like to build them locally, we're not going to get the same craftsmanship.

[34:50] Alex Evans: Yeah. It makes sense. That just adds that extra layer of intentionality behind the spa itself. But we've only got a couple minutes left. I really want to just dig into World Spa 2 a little bit more. It's something that wasn't even on my radar. I didn't know that you guys were looking to open up another location. Is there anything you can share with us about when that location might be coming? Is that also going to be in New York City, or is that going to be in a different major city?

[35:17] Leonid Khanin: It's going to be in New York. It's just in a different part of it. I'm not going to expose yet on the size and the location. And it might be actually not one location at once. There's so much research. I'm just overwhelmed with the amount of new components that will land in a program, and I'm very excited because right now the selection will be very educated by seeing how people react on whatever we've done so far. So it's not going to be just a guess. A lot of things are different this time.

[36:06] Alex Evans: Yeah, I'm sure with all the knowledge that you've accumulated and all the feedback that you've gotten from customers over the years, I can't imagine what World Spa 2 is going to be like. So I'm really looking forward to that. But I really wanted to thank you for your time joining me today. Once again, if people want to find you, they can physically go to you. You're located in Brooklyn, New York at World Spa. You offer spa treatments, obviously a lot of the other functionalities that we discussed too, sauna, cold plunge, hamam as well. So if you are interested in visiting World Spa and discovering 50,000 plus square feet of spa-related activities, you should definitely go visit them. And if somebody's watching this and they would like to have a tour as well, is that something that they can opt in for, or is that publicly available, or is that something that's more private?

[36:56] Leonid Khanin: Well, it's not exactly publicly available. I choose when I see people who are interested, because we have, we had close to half a million visitors. Can you imagine if I'll be doing tours for everybody? But if there are people who are interested in this business or who have some connection and I feel it, and somebody recommends, or I feel like it's a fit, then I do a tour. But it's not happening every day or on some kind of schedule. Sometimes I do.

[37:31] Alex Evans: Understood. Well, you heard it here first. If you are in the industry and you're looking to maybe grow your own spa or have some unique insight, feel free to hit up Leonid Khanin. And I just want to say one more time, thank you so much for your time today, and it's a pleasure to meet you here. I can't wait to meet you in person as well too. Thank you so much.

[37:51] Leonid Khanin: Sounds great. Thank you.